On this episode of Banking on KC, Jonathan Bender, Emmy-winner, certified American Royal barbecue judge and founder of the Museum of Barbecue, joins host Kelly Scanlon to discuss how barbecue connects culture, history and entrepreneurship—and why Kansas City continues to be at the heart of America’s barbecue story. Tune in to discover:
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Kelly Scanlon: Welcome to Banking on KC. I'm your host, Kelly Scanlon. Thank you for joining us. With us on this episode is Jonathan Bender, the Emmy winning writer, former food editor for Kansas City PBS certified American Royal Barbecue Judge and founder of Kansas City's newest attraction, the Museum of Barbecue.
Welcome, Jonathan.
Jonathan Bender: Thanks for having me.
Kelly Scanlon: I'm really excited. This is just a new endeavor. I mean, you've been working on it a long time, but it just opened in April, right?
Jonathan Bender: Yeah. Our grand opening was April 12th of this year.
Kelly Scanlon: And I wanna talk about how you got there. You've had quite a journey. You're from Brooklyn, so you came to Kansas City in 2007.
You've been a journalist, you've been a. Judge, documentary producer, museum founder. So let's go back to Brooklyn to talk about what drew you to Kansas City in 2007. And what gap were you trying to fill in Kansas City's already legendary barbecue scene by launching the Museum of Barbecue.
Jonathan Bender: Yeah, so back in 2007, my wife and I lived in Brooklyn.
She got a job in Kansas City. She's originally from this area. I love her dearly and we'll go wherever she goes. Uh, and it was a no brainer. I think we were ready to start a family. Kansas City. On the face of it felt like an easy place to live. Right. The cost of living, the people here.
Kelly Scanlon: We're friendly.
Jonathan Bender: Friendly, yeah. We don't fight. Yeah. And it also, it was the right time of life, right? We got a backyard and a dog and a grill. Yes. Oh my. It was really a, a lovely transition, from New York to Kansas City and as a, a writer I kind of could pack my pen up and go wherever. And here in Kansas City, the food scene had just started kind of blossoming and there was a little bit of serendipity, right?
The downtown renaissance was kind of gaining steam, and so initially I had written for both the Pitch and the Kansas City Star. And one of the openings for me as a freelancer was in writing about food. And in particular, barbecue is sort of that central tent pole of the Kansas City food scene. And one of the things that really struck me early on was that pit masters and folks who run barbecue restaurants are not only welcoming, you know, they.
Get real joy out of feeding people, but they also are striving to bring people together around food and they're really good storytellers.
Kelly Scanlon: Oh, I can only imagine. Yeah.
Jonathan Bender: Uh, and so butchers as well, right? Like folks within the meat universe kind of, uh, sometimes they're larger than life characters and, uh, a lot of times have.
Really lovely family traditions that are involved with, and so the story of barbecue really is one of people as much as it is food. And over time, right, as I, I wrote about barbecue, uh, as you pointed out, I, I judged the American Royal, you know, now over a decade ago, I'd. Discovered I can eat about two pounds of meat, you know?
Oh. Like, that might be my limit. Where you're, that's a lot of
Kelly Scanlon: meat. It's, I mean,
Jonathan Bender: it's wild. I laid on my couch for no exaggeration, four or five hours after that immobile. And I would highly recommend it to everybody to do once. Right. You know, I think, but having that experience of seeing how committed people are to barbecue, the way in which it influences their lives, right.
And in some ways takes over their lives that you wouldn't do barbecue if you didn't. Love it, right? Like, it, it is so time consuming and costly. And there's a real learning curve. You know, I think part of what's joyous about barbecue is there isn't a perfect meal. There's sort of that strive for perfection.
You know, everybody has that one rack of ribs that brisket, that turned out that they just wish they could replicate, you know, or, uh, your father-in-law made something once and it was dynamite and you really wish you wrote down the recipe. And so the, the more I covered that. Food scene. You know, I, I came to understand why barbecue was so important to Kansas City, not only economically, but culturally and the ways in which Kansas City has elevated barbecue to the rest of the country.
Right? You know, this isn't just a Kansas City story in many respects, it's an American story. I went to Kansas City, PBS, we made a documentary called Burnt Legend. And burnt legend is a half hour story about burn ends. You know that iconic crispy chard edge is a brisket that are
Kelly Scanlon: Oh, I love one of my favorites
Jonathan Bender: That beautiful crunch on the outside.
Oh, it's, it's delightful, right? Uh, you got that beautiful luscious interior, like it just makes you hungry thinking about them. You know, I can picture it in my head. I'm sure your listeners can as well. And that experience really showed me. Barbecue has legs as a story where there are so many points it touches upon both historically and as well as kind of the very fabric of Kansas City.
You know, you can see the development in the 18th and buying district, and you can look at how competition barbecue in particular has sort of fueled the last series of, you know, big. Barbecue restaurants on the national landscape. And so around that time I started thinking about different modes of storytelling.
You know, I had started as a writer then I made film documentaries. And I, I really loved the idea of a place that was in person that was about connection. There was no museum dedicated to barbecue in the entire world. And that, that really struck me, right as both, not just an opportunity, but uh. A hole, right?
Something that was missing from the world. And as so much of my work migrated online, I, I was really drawn to building a physical space. That was sensorial and touch base and was about physically having people together around a food in barbecue that is very much about community.
Kelly Scanlon: Well, and it's really interesting that you describe a museum as a way to tell a story.
A lot of people might think of a museum as a way to preserve things, but. When you stop and think about it, every museum does tell a story and so, so let's talk about the story of Kansas City's barbecue for just a minute. I know that you cover more than Kansas City, but what makes Kansas City's barbecue story so different, and why is it important to preserve and to present that in a museum?
Jonathan Bender: I think the lovely part of Kansas City Barbecue is that. It is a story of everywhere, right? You know, Kansas City has been referred to as a melting pot of barbecue. We have southern influences and we cook literally every kind of meat under the sun. You know, it was possum and woodchuck and now it is pork and beef and Turkey and ham and chicken.
And the, the joy for me in Kansas City's barbecue scene is that you will see somebody like Tyler Harp out in Overland Park doing Texas style brisket. Because he's a Kansas City guy who went to Texas, liked the idea of thick cut brisket and a platter with your onions on the side and decided to do it. But you'll also have somebody like Q 39 or Joe's, Kansas City that was founded within the competition barbecue scene.
And those things are occurring alongside places like. Gates and Bryants who can trace their legacy back to Henry Perry, who more than a century ago, was in the garment district and the 18th and Vine neighborhood with roadside stands before, freestanding restaurants and really starting to promote this idea of, hey, a pit master who has an ability to take a tough cut of meat, cook it for a long and low slow period of time can produce something sublime.
And so you, you really have both. These folks who are trying to innovate or think about different ways to present barbecue. Bnd then you can tie it all the way back to our meat packing history. Yes. And stockyard district down in the west Bottoms.
Kelly Scanlon: Yeah. So, so if I'm hearing you right, what you're saying is that barbecue isn't just this food group that can be written about or whatever it is actually, the story of it, and the reason it's so important to preserve it is because it is a part of Kansas City's history, not just Kansas City's history.
Jonathan Bender: Right. Like the part of what's fascinating to me is Kansas City's history isn't. Intrinsically tied into the global history of barbecue, right, with Casey Masterpiece and also the Kansas City Barbecue Society literally sanctioning contests across the globe. You know, Kansas City's influence extends beyond the city itself, where I think part of the defining characteristics of barbecue are very much being written here.
Kelly Scanlon: How does the museum honor our local heritage while also presenting the broader American regional barbecue tradition?
Jonathan Bender: That's such a great question. I mean, I think for me, if I had opened a Kansas City specific barbecue museum, not being from Kansas City. I think that would've been a tough road to, to hoe, right?
But, and so building a place that for Kansas City ins could highlight some of the other places that have a long and storied history with barbecue felt authentic. But more importantly, placing Kansas City within the context of American barbecue. So talking about Memphis and Texas and the Carolinas, each having their own dedicated room.
I actually felt for folks coming. Into Kansas City and people living here. It was a really nice way to be able to understand, okay, what are the regional differences? Why does Memphis care about dry rub and why is pork so important to the Carolinas? Or salt? And pepper really is the predominant spice in Texas.
And I, I felt like there was a real opportunity to give folks a barbecue 1 0 1, if you will, about the different regions. And that's something that I do think is missing from our collective barbecue consciousness. You know, folks may say Kansas City style Barbecue. They might not understand how that is different from the other regions.
Kelly Scanlon: And really to exclude the others is to sort of, uh, not give Kansas City its own do because as you say, wear a melting pot and the influences have come from all over. How would you describe Kansas City Barbecue yourself? You mentioned the salt and pepper in Texas. You mentioned the rubs in Tennessee. Uh, how would you.
Characterize Kansas City Barbecue.
Jonathan Bender: Delicious. I mean, it's right.
Kelly Scanlon: I agree with that.
Jonathan Bender: No, no, no question that, no. I mean, in terms of about that, the styles, sure. The hallmarks of it. I think, uh, you'll probably have a savory rub, right? That's complex in flavor. Most start with, you know, brown sugar and salt and pepper.
But then folks are gonna add in paprika or sometimes cumin. You'll then tend to have a sauce that's on the sweeter side that'll play off the savory notes in that rub. So the two poles are traditionally tomato and molasses, right? So you think of Casey Masterpiece and you get the acidity of the tomato.
You get that big body and sweetness from molasses brown sugar. I, I also think though, we have a. More complex. Part of what the museum discusses is our sauce profile isn't just tomato and molasses. If you go to Arthur Bryant's, there's pepper and vinegar in that sauce. Yeah. So there's a little bit of vinegar and gate sauce, and that stems back to the days of Henry Perry, right?
That it was a face melting fire sauce. It was a hot pepper, vinegar, sauce. Mm-hmm. In and of itself stems back to Tennessee, right? And kind of the southern influence of a, a peppery vinegar sauce that would go really well with a chopped pork. And so for those poles of Kansas City, you know, savory rub, a little bit of sweet sauce that willingness to cook everything, but then in particular, burn ends the charred, crispy edges of brisket, you know, where the brisket naturally tapers.
So it gets a little bit crispy on the outside. Without question. That's the, the hallmark of Kansas City Barbecue.
Kelly Scanlon: Yeah. I may sound like a heretic that the meat to me is secondary. Honestly, I love the sauce, but put it on mashed potatoes. No, I'm teasing. Well, that's
Jonathan Bender: something I don't think I realized prior to living here is if most Kansas City, I think the way folks would have a couple bottles of mustard or something else in their fridge.
I've yet to be at a Kansas City household where there's a solitary bottle of sauce in the house, right? Like most folks have four or five sauces at any one time in their house because everybody in their family has a favorite or something they grew up on. Or one person likes spicy, one person likes.
Sweet.
Kelly Scanlon: Absolutely. So let's talk about when you were the food editor at K-C-P-B-S. You mentioned the Burnt Legend documentary, and by the way, you're being very modest that earned you a MidAmerica regional. Emmy, so congratulations on that. But how did that storytelling experience shape the way you designed the museum?
Jonathan Bender: I think it showed me that there are so many different ways to reach people, right? And so I, I think oral storytelling, right? The ability to hear from someone or to have their words represented and kind of captured was really important. Now. I think one of the things that struck me about both the documentary and uh, written pieces is I realized it was a bit of a one-way conversation, right?
I, I can present you a story. I can kind of, uh, set it up to where here's what's gonna happen and here's the drama of it. But it was missing some of the interactive components. And so we intentionally. The museum to be high touch and delightfully interactive and really engage with your senses. So if you're in the spice room right, you have the opportunity to actually smell the components that are in rub and try and guess them right alongside an ingredient list and a recipe for how to make your own rib rub.
And to me, actually, that was the evolution or the, the way I thought. And the reason I kind of wanted to bring the museum to life was this becomes an interactive story. There's two main storytelling tracks in the museum. How does barbecue get its flavor? And then what does it look like if you take a road trip through, you know, barbecue's, main American regions?
Kelly Scanlon: One of the things that you have learned and that maybe some of you know, is. Barbecues often passed down like a family heirloom. It's a legacy in a family. It's not just the recipes, but it's the techniques. It is the values, it is the family values that shaped that. So how's a museum preserving specific stories like that of the pit masters that might be lost?
Jonathan Bender: Yeah, I think that's the next thing that comes over time, right? So we. We built the museum to be modular in design, right? The, for folks who haven't been in, it's a powder coated steel frame with a four by eight modular sheet inside of it. That gives us the opportunity to update exhibits over time. Uh, I also look at it, we're in about 4,300 square feet in Crown Center.
I know we can't tell all of the museum's stories. And so some of my background, right, as a, a journalist and filmmaker, I know there are other stories we'll want to tell, and that's kind of the next, you know, evolution of, or the place I'd love for the museum to be able to go is to tell more stories to where the museum physically is at the heart of it.
But there's the opportunity to do that, you know, online and in person through either events or, you know. Written or filmed pieces. Right.
Kelly Scanlon: One of my favorite things I read about it was this is the bean pit, where it's this oversized crock of balls that are shaped like beans is, that's for kids, I assume.
Have you ever seen? No. It's for kids and adults. So it's adults are all okay. It's
Jonathan Bender: 10 feet wide and big enough to hold it. We've had folks as old as 75 in our bean pit. Uh, we'll help you out. It's harder to get out than it is to get in. Yes. The joy of it. Right. Some of this is play, you know, I, I think we learn sometimes when we're playing.
And also, uh, being at Crown Center, it is a multi-generational site. It's a place that people have gone, you know, for Christmas for years, or they remember going as a child. We sort of see barbecue in the same light. Barbecue is a multi-generational affair, as you mentioned, right? Folks learn from someone in their family, or if you're having a cookout in in the backyard, there's gonna be a couple generations there.
And so we wanted to design a space that could appeal to both kids, their parents, and their. Parents'. Parents, sure. It, so far has been true. You know, the, the joy of hearing kids and their grandparents in the bean pit, you know, we think of it like the ocean. You can actually hear the balls moving like the waves when you're in the front room.
That's the best part of this. Without question that I couldn't foreseen. Really lovely to build. Even better to have people inside it.
Kelly Scanlon: Oh, I bet, I bet. So it's obvious by now, you know, the Museum of Barbecue is more than just smoke and meat. It's about entrepreneurship, it's about culture, it's about community.
Uh. It's about business too. So how does the museum highlight the business and innovation side of barbecue?
Jonathan Bender: Yeah. I think that's kind of one of the coolest parts about pit masters is they are entrepreneurs. Right? The how do you take something that nobody wanted, right? Remember, burnt ends were once burned edges, yeah, absolutely.
That were given away for free. You know, Calvin wrote about them being at Arthur Bryant's famously. That is the true spirit of barbecue. It's taking something unwanted or less popularized. You know, now when I talk to folks in the backyard, they're talking about the price of tri-tip steak and how it's gone up wildly, in part because people figure out a way to make it delicious and demand, you know.
Barbecue is so much a story of supply and demand as anything else. And so I, I think part of any barbecue story ultimately is a story of entrepreneurship, right? Where you are figuring out how can I meet demand, how can I. Guess at supply and still hopefully have some ribs at the end of the day. Right.
Kelly Scanlon: Yeah. And, and how can I use, I mean, kind of hearkens back to, uh, previous centuries where you use every single bit of the meat where it's like, okay, this isn't the, the best cut of the meat, but how can I make it really tasty? You know, the innovative, and you've talked about the tri tip steaks and, and in different things, uh, they find different ways to use cuts so that they're attractive. Yeah.
Jonathan Bender: Or the drippings in beans. Yeah. Right. You know, the idea that, to your point, there's flavor and so how do we make sure that that flavor, in most cases, fat doesn't go to waste.
Kelly Scanlon: That's true. So, so we're talking about the economic driver for Kansas City, but let's take that up a notch. So there's more than a hundred barbecue restaurants in the Kansas City area.
There's events we've talked about, the American Royal Barbecue, regional contests, so they draw visitors. How do you see the Museum of Barbecue serving as an economic. Or tourism driver for Kansas City.
Jonathan Bender: Yeah, I think we've already seen it, but full disclosure, visit Kansas City is one of our sponsors.
We've had folks in from Australia and Canada, had a family in from Netherlands the other day. There was a Scottish butcher who had the brogue and everything, which I won't do for you, but was as delightful as you're imagining in your head and. I have seen, and uh, the folks who work with us have seen people are coming to Kansas City to learn the story of barbecue and then go eat barbecue.
And I envisioned the museum as a gateway. You know, can you come in, can you learn about kind of how barbecue becomes delicious, how barbecue is both singular and related to other barbecue here in Kansas City in relation to the country and then go out and eat, right? Yeah. And so, I mean, we're the last stop on the newly relaunched KC barbecue experience.
And so you can go out, right and you can check out all that Kansas City has to offer. The number of folks who come in who have a fine morning or afternoon, you know, we get busy right before lunch and a little bit before dinner, and I have no doubt, right? It's a a day date that's pretty great where you get to go experience the museum and then go eat barbecue.
Kelly Scanlon: I'm curious what is, what is the reaction of people who come from other countries? You know, they hear all this hype about Kansas City Barbecue, about American barbecue. We're talking specifically right now about Kansas City Barbecue. What. Is their reaction to it.
Jonathan Bender: I think people are always excited to learn about food.
Right? The why does something taste good? How is it made? You know, you gain a bigger appreciation for something if you have a little bit of the magic revealed, right? You know, you we careful in the sense of we were trying not to go. So far in depth that we lose people, but we wanna give people enough information if they already have a baseline, right?
One of my favorite moments happened very early on when we opened, where there was a woman from Kansas City and her daughters and she walked into the meat room. So everybody enters the museum through a giant smoker door. Uh, so you have that great, I love that transition, right? And in the meat room there is a faux butcher shop.
You can don an apron and pretend like you're cutting up some plushy meats. She dawns the apron. She gets behind the counter and I can tell she's really excited for what's gonna come next. And the next family that walks through the door in the top of her lungs, she just yells, hi, may I help you? And it's that traditional, lovely greeting that you get at Gates every time you walk in.
Now, the only problem with this story is. Unbeknownst to her, the family who happened to walk in after her was a family of four from Germany who had zero context for what was happening. And so they were sort of taken aback and I had to both explain to the German family, this is something from Kansas City.
It's kind of an insider baseball reference, but then. Also tell the woman and her daughters over there like, you killed it. Like with any other party. Right. If that had been from Kansas City, that joke would've landed, you know, with a splash. But, uh oh, that is hilarious. It's just this delightful, delightful mashup of, right.
And I, I think we have seen over and over people kind of let their guard down and, you know, just immerse themselves in the museum.
Kelly Scanlon: Now, if I'm understanding correctly, you don't have any food though. You get people's senses all at full tilt, but then you send them out.
Jonathan Bender: You're correct. We do not serve food.
So Burn end barbecue is on the first floor of Crown Center. You know, part of the reason we picked a location is there's a barbecue restaurant within a hundred feet. Although knowing Kansas City, that may have been true of any location we picked. Everyone does get a sweet surprise at the end because we recognize we've spent.
30 or 45 minutes making you hungry. But you're right. I mean, we tickle all your senses, but then we, we do set you loose on Kansas City to go eat barbecue,
Kelly Scanlon: so supporting that local economy. Now, when you launched back in April, you got a lot of media coverage. That's how I found out about you. And it was usually pitching the museum as the world's first barbecue museum.
You mentioned that here on this show. So how do you plan to sustain that interest and grow beyond that opening buzz? What are your plans for that?
Jonathan Bender: Yeah, I, I think. Part of it is the story of barbecue has been going on for literal centuries, right? So I, I think we are, uh, in a nice position to present an older story in a new way.
And we can do that for a long time, both by continuing to tell new stories. I also think based off of, if you look at what's on tv. Based off how people travel for food, there's genuine and sincere interest in barbecue in part whether you are just a cook or just an eater. And so some of what I love is the way we can connect with folks in the museum.
I, I also think there'll be the opportunity for us to look at events and additional content outside the museum. For me in the first few months, right, with the new business, it was really important that the experience of the museum was right, that we felt like we knew what the business was and that we could provide a great customer service experience.
So those things, I think, all come in the future. You know, I, I couldn't tell you what they are because we're gonna figure out when those opportunities come up and based off of who we work with. But I, I love that idea. Um, and I will say early on. Collaborations have been a really positive way for us to connect with folks in the community.
We launched a beer with Boulevard in the first month we were open. Yeah, you have to do that. Yeah. It's called Mo Beer and it, it's still available in their tourism and rec center. It's, uh, it's a barbecue sauce, barbecue inspired beer, a little bit of smoke notes and cracked black pepper. I can tell you the.
Tasting for that was the best part. Right? Being able to formulate a beer that kind of gives a subtle nod to barbecue. Uh, it's 11.8% though, so I will warn people to sip it, like take their time and it's a big beer. Uh, likewise, we did a a t-shirt collaboration with Reagan that says Kansas City's got sauce.
You know, just a nod to exactly what you were discussing earlier, that we kinda hold up a little bit of sauce with our barbecue on occasion. And that's proven to be a way for us to. Find some good community partners to kind of extend our reach and, and then also play a little bit, right. You know, that I, I love that idea that we can bring some barbecue knowledge, some excitement, and then kind of combine it with folks who are really good at what they do.
Part of that too. My partner in this venture is the Alex Pope, who is the chef and owner at Local Pig and Pig Witch. And so for us, that was a really nice marriage, right? Where he's, uh, we've got his beef sticks on the counter where we check out and we sell a ton of them. But it's, it's just a really nice way to have somebody with complimentary skillset.
Kelly Scanlon: I can't get outta here without asking two more questions. One is, I know you said you're in Crown Center, but. Are you open every day of the week?
Jonathan Bender: We are. We're open 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM Monday through Saturday and 12 to 5:00 PM on Sundays.
Kelly Scanlon: The big question though, that I'm sure everybody wants to know by this point is, what's your personal go-to barbecue joint in Kansas City and what's your order?
Jonathan Bender: Ooh, I love that question. I mean, everyone does get it. If you gimme one shot at it, I'm going to LC's and I'm getting burns. Oh, yes, LC's. You can get pork burns or beef burns. It's delicious. It's out by the stadiums. It's the joy for me though, is the Kansas City answer is to go by protein or specific dish.
Right. And that list becomes five or six deep
Kelly Scanlon: LC's and uh, sometimes people don't know it about it. It's not as top of mind as some of the others, but it is, is wonderful and it's. Now passed down another to another generation. Right? Yeah.
Jonathan Bender: It's his granddaughter. Tasha's running it. Exactly. LC passed away a few years ago.
Kelly Scanlon: You have a website, museum of bbq.co, not.com, museum of bbq.co. And our listeners can learn more about the museum or sign up for updates. You put out some updates. Uh, and again, that's Museum of bbq.co. Jonathan, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.
Joe Close: This is Joe Close, president of Country Club Bank. Thank you to Jonathan Bender for being our guest. On this episode of Banking on KC, Jonathan reminded us that barbecue is more than brisket and burnt ends. It's a slow smoke story of culture, community, and entrepreneurship that stretches from Memphis to Texas to the Carolinas with Kansas City's rich barbecue.
Heritage at the heart of the story. The Museum of Barbecue showcases those regional flavors while preserving Casey's sauce, slathered legacy. At Country Club Bank, we know that like a good rag of ribs, business success takes patience, passion, and the right support team. We're proud to stand alongside Kansas City entrepreneurs who like our pit masters turn raw potential into something truly unforgettable.
Thanks for tuning in this week. We're Banking on You, Kansas City. Country Club Bank, member FDIC.